<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7147" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7152">I agree with James. My earlier brief post was intended only as a codicil. I think that the interesting discussion of "Trouble" in the KBJ illustrates the difficulty of pinning down even the meaning of the word "Trouble." If, as Bruner seems to suggest, Burke used the term as a synonym for his more commonly used term "incongruity," or as a warning that all ratios inherently struggle with the problem of "inconsistencies," then I agree that "Trouble" is ever present in Pentadic analyses, even though it is not a sixth term. </span><em style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: Play; font-size: 13.008px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_8085">Althouse & Anderson </em>write "<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: Play; font-size: 13.008px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_8252">that Burke propounds a "principle of consistency" between pentadic terms (</span><em style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: Play; font-size: 13.008px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_8253">Grammar</em><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: Play; font-size: 13.008px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_8254"> 9)</span>." Very true! </div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7147" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7147" dir="ltr">The expanded applications of various concepts of "Trouble," however, suggest that a single pentadic set is capable of engendering a zillion other pentadic sets (give or take two or three trillion), as each person considers that his/her own meaning of any given term (such as even the word "Trouble") or any given assessment of the Scene does not find congruity with the meaning held by the originator of the pentadic set. A "Scene," for example, can be minute or expansive (by widening or narrowing the circumference), as the originator of the pentadic set wishes. It can include everything from physical setting to philosophical worldviews. Subsequent creators of pentadic sets dealing with the same issue/s will choose to expand or truncate the Scene, as they wish. Burke's Pentad is not concerned with "listing" or "categorizing" every possibility (which is itself impossible) that could fit into a particular bin. Therefore, it is not a taxonomy. It is heuristic, since it allows any given individual to attempt to assess the "Motives" operative in a given pentadic set. In order to have an Act, there must be an Agent who has a Purpose. So, if my neighbor (Agent) mows his lawn (Act) with a loud gas-powered mower (Agency) at 3 a.m. (Scene), I can speculate concerning his Purpose--that he is trying to annoy me, or that he is showing his property for sale early tomorrow, etc. The Pentad, itself is NOT social commentary, but it supplies a heuristic tool for anyone who would care to engage in social commentary, as I illustrate in my pentadic discussion of the abortion debate in Chapter 5 (how appropriate!) of my book Implicit Rhetoric: Kenneth Burke's Extension of Aristotle's Concept of Entelechy.</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7147" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7147" dir="ltr">The Pentad is a simple heuristic tool. It depends on ratios and consistency, and yet there is even room for a Perspective by Incongruity, which one might call "Trouble," but it is actually "Trouble" with a designed Purpose (therefore, I prefer the term "Incongruity"), as when passing motorists see Cows painting "Eat Mor Chikin" on a billboard on the side of the road. The Incongruity of Cows advocating the consumption of Chicken in misspelled English offers the passing motorists a new Perspective.</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7147" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7147" dir="ltr">Since I mention Aristotle and Entelechy, I could add another "Grammar" to the two I mentioned in my earlier post. Aristotle's "Grammar of Entelechy," from which I believe Burke developed his Pentad. For Aristotle, every entelechy--whether physical, astrological, biological, artistic, or other human action--includes four causes of the motion or action: The efficient cause/arche, the material cause/hule, the formal cause/eidos, and the final cause/telos. Burke associates his Scene with the Material Cause. He associates his Purpose with the Final Cause. He associates his Agent with the Efficient Cause. He struggles with the Formal Cause, and gets it wrong, I think. But, once again, these 4 causes are quite similar to Burke's 5 motives. The reason, I think, Burke changes "causes" to "motives" is that human action (Burke's focus) involves free will; whereas, biological motion (Aristotle's primary focus?) often involves only causes.</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7147" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7147" dir="ltr">Any of the three "grammars" could accommodate a Cultural Criticism or Social Commentary, but as pure grammars, they are "stripped of specifics."</div><div></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_6982"> </div><div class="signature" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7041">Dr. Stan A. Lindsay, Ph.D. <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7042">Teaching Professor </div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7043">Professional Communication <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7144">College of Applied Studies </div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7145">Florida State University </div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7146">slindsay@pc.fsu.edu</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7429">http://www.stanlindsay.com</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7430">http://www.lindsayDIS.COM</div></div></div><div class="qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7431"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7437" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7436"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7435"> <div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7434"> <font size="2" face="Arial" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7433"> <hr size="1" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7432"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> James Klumpp <jklumpp@umd.edu><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Stan Lindsay <slindsa@yahoo.com>; Jim Moore <jimmijcat@hotmail.com>; "kb@kbjournal.org" <kb@kbjournal.org> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January 26, 2017 7:49 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [KB] Editing Redux<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7468"><br><div id="yiv7206764076"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7473">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485452366403_7472">Just to focus on two words that I try to suspend when working
with the pentad: taxonomy and categories. Of course the pentadic
terms as they function in the grammar are "stripped of . . .
specifics" as Stan emphasizes. What I would emphasize is that
Stan's sentences are intended (I believe) to make the point that
the game is in the relationships among the terms -- the ratios --
that are created in the well-formed sentence. Symbolic assertion
shapes those ratios. So, I shy away from "taxonomy" because it
has the implication of "binning" or sorting either terms or their
referents into bins. That would be a sort of mechanical process
wrapped in referential meaning. Burke argues elsewhere against
this mechanical "name the address" thinking about how symbols
work. "Naming the categories" has the same mechanical ring to it
for me. When the pentad meets the specifics of symbolic action,
the key is not what "belongs" to each pentadic term, but how the
symbolic action arrays experience into a particular account. In
that linguistic act, hierarchy is performed (not imposed) as the
ratios emerge to give meaning. Thus do sentences (and other modes
of symbolic array) do their work: shaping the shared understanding
of the world by cajoling and negotiating. My caution is to avoid
the binning of mechanical understanding: autopsy, if you would.
Remember that at a well-performed autopsy, the object of study is
dead. Symbolic action isn't.</div>
<div>I believe that some of the abuses we have perpetuated on the
pentad as critics of discourse is because we have binned with the
pentadic terms: sorting stuff into pentadic bins -- What is the
agent? What is the act? etc. -- and then trying to put it into
motion (sic); rather than seeing the pentad as a vocabulary to
capture the differing ratios that construct meaning in symbolic
action. That is my plea: avoid the binning and emphasize the
relationships that construct accounts.<br clear="none">
</div>
<div>My two cents worth.</div>
<div>Jim K<br clear="none">
</div>
<br clear="none">
<div class="yiv7206764076yqt1477684943" id="yiv7206764076yqt46503"><div class="yiv7206764076moz-cite-prefix">On 1/23/2017 11:49 PM, Stan Lindsay
wrote:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">
<div dir="ltr" id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3519"><span id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3528">Burkeans,</span></div>
<div dir="ltr" id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3519"><span><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div dir="ltr" id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3519"><span id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_4278">I appreciate the
efforts to simplify (or humble) the Pentad. After all, the
book in which it is featured is called A "Grammar" of
Motives. Stripped of all its specifics, the Pentad
functions something like the following (grammatical)
sentence: "</span>The nominative noun (modified by
adjective/s) verbed (modified
by adverb/s) the accusative noun in the locative dative noun
(modified by
adjective/s) with the instrumental dative noun (modified by
adjective/s) in
order to infinitive." It is void of specifics. In the
"grammar" of the Pentad, the previous sentence would read,
"The Agent Acted in the Scene by using the Agency in order to
accomplish the Purpose." Once again, void of specifics. The
grammar by itself is neither positive nor negative--those
positive or negative elements are introduced by specifying
what belongs with each Pentadic term. It is not a taxonomy in
any hierarchal sense, but in the sense that the terms of the
Pentad (like Noun, Verb, Adjective, Preposition, etc. of
linguistic grammar) name the categories under which other
specific words may be classified.</div>
<div dir="ltr" id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3519"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3519">Stan</div>
<div id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3529"></div>
<div id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3355"> </div>
<div class="yiv7206764076signature" id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3359">Dr.
Stan A. Lindsay, Ph.D.
<div id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3361">Teaching
Professor </div>
<div id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3362">Professional
Communication
<div id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3517">College of
Applied Studies </div>
<div id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3516">Florida State
University </div>
<div id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3515"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv7206764076moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:slindsay@pc.fsu.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:slindsay@pc.fsu.edu">slindsay@pc.fsu.edu</a></div>
<div id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3388"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv7206764076moz-txt-link-freetext" target="_blank" href="http://www.stanlindsay.com/">http://www.stanlindsay.com</a></div>
<div id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3392"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv7206764076moz-txt-link-freetext" target="_blank" href="http://www.lindsaydis.com/">http://www.lindsayDIS.COM</a></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv7206764076qtdSeparateBR" id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3819"><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</div>
<div class="yiv7206764076yahoo_quoted" id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3816" style="display:block;">
<div id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3815" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">
<div id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3814" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">
<div dir="ltr" id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3813">
<font id="yiv7206764076yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1485227235308_3818" face="Arial" size="2">
</font><hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b>
Jim Moore <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv7206764076moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:jimmijcat@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:jimmijcat@hotmail.com"><jimmijcat@hotmail.com></a><br clear="none">
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b>
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv7206764076moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:kb@kbjournal.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:kb@kbjournal.org">"kb@kbjournal.org"</a> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv7206764076moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:kb@kbjournal.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:kb@kbjournal.org"><kb@kbjournal.org></a> <br clear="none">
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Monday, January 23, 2017 6:43 PM<br clear="none">
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [KB] Editing Redux<br clear="none">
</div>
<div class="yiv7206764076y_msg_container"><br clear="none">
<div id="yiv7206764076">
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<div dir="ltr" id="yiv7206764076x_divtagdefaultwrapper" style="font-size:12pt;color:#000000;font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div>Jim Klumpp wrote:</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-size:13.3333px;">"Let
the humble pentad do its work well. If </span><br clear="none" style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-size:13.3333px;">
<span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-size:13.3333px;">we
do, I think that we will have less chance of
losing the point that </span><br clear="none" style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-size:13.3333px;">
<span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-size:13.3333px;">the
pentad was posited for in the first place:
to capture ways that </span><br clear="none" style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-size:13.3333px;">
<span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-size:13.3333px;">symbolic
accounts carve up the world differently."</span><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(33,33,33);font-size:13.3333px;"><br clear="none">
</span></div>
<div><font color="#212121"><span style="font-size:13.3333px;">Jim Moore
responds:</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#212121"><span style="font-size:13.3333px;"><br clear="none">
</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#212121"><span style="font-size:13.3333px;">Back in the
day, my Burkean prof put it this way: the
pentad is not a taxonomy. Rather, it is a
heuristic designed to function as Prof.
Klumpp has adumbrated. I agree with Jim
K. that incorporating the term Trouble
into pentadic analysis will add little, if
anything, to the pentad's power as a
heuristic. The idea that "Trouble" is
somehow "missing" from the pentad seems
tacitly to attempt to give the pentad
purely objective descriptive accuracy that
Burke did not claim for it.</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#212121"><span style="font-size:13.3333px;"><br clear="none">
</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#212121"><span style="font-size:13.3333px;">Burke's
eventual division of Agency into
Means/Attitude served a different purpose:
to emphasize the coexistence of
instrumental and postural Agencies, which
sometimes may be useful to construe
as discrete. "Trouble" seems to be an
attempt put another scoop on the ice cream
cone, a scoop that is already implied by
the presence of the Agent (an actor, not
just a mover) amid the other four or five
scoops. That needless scoop leaves the
ice cream in danger of tumbling with
only questionable benefit to be derived
from the new scoop.</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#212121"><span style="font-size:13.3333px;"><br clear="none">
</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#212121"><span style="font-size:13.3333px;">I love rocky
road,</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#212121"><span style="font-size:13.3333px;"><br clear="none">
</span></font></div>
<div><font color="#212121"><span style="font-size:13.3333px;">Jim</span></font></div>
</div>
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block;width:98%;">
<div class="yiv7206764076yqt1790418050" id="yiv7206764076yqt71129">
<div dir="ltr" id="yiv7206764076x_divRplyFwdMsg"><font style="font-size:11pt;" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> KB
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv7206764076moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:kb-bounces@kbjournal.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:kb-bounces@kbjournal.org"><kb-bounces@kbjournal.org></a> on behalf
of James Klumpp <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv7206764076moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:jklumpp@umd.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:jklumpp@umd.edu"><jklumpp@umd.edu></a><br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> January 23, 2017 1:57:41 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv7206764076moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:kb@kbjournal.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:kb@kbjournal.org">kb@kbjournal.org</a>;
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv7206764076moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:edwardcappel@frontier.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:edwardcappel@frontier.com">edwardcappel@frontier.com</a><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> [KB] Editing Redux</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<font size="2"><span style="font-size:10pt;">
</span></font>
<div class="yiv7206764076yqt1790418050" id="yiv7206764076yqt28276">
<div class="yiv7206764076PlainText">I am not
certain that I disagree at all with Ed Appel.
But I do think
<br clear="none">
that we err when we try to overburden the pentad
by loading all Burkean <br clear="none">
insights on it. Trouble is one of those. We
need to remember that the <br clear="none">
pentad was a vocabulary designed to work with
variety of accounts. <br clear="none">
"This book is concerned with the basic forms of
thought which, in <br clear="none">
accordance with the nature of the world as all
men experience it, are <br clear="none">
exemplified in the attributing of motives. . .
We shall use five terms <br clear="none">
as generating principle for our investigation.
In a rounded statement <br clear="none">
about motives . . ." Now when we accomplish
this task of understanding <br clear="none">
the ways in which the symbol using animal
attributes motives, provides <br clear="none">
symbolic accounts of situations, we have not
said all that is to be <br clear="none">
said. Very well. Why does the pentad need to
capture all of the world's <br clear="none">
insight? Let Ed say that the dramatistic
process is necessary to a <br clear="none">
fuller statement about diachronic narrative (and
to human conflict). I <br clear="none">
am fine with that. I agree. And, drama is a
natural metaphor because, <br clear="none">
Burke argues elsewhere, the state of Babel
creates disorder and <br clear="none">
conflict, as Jim Moore adds. But let us not
lose sight of the necessary <br clear="none">
work that the pentad does so well --
illuminating the variety of motives <br clear="none">
that mark the Babel of human speech. Let it do
that work well and let <br clear="none">
other insights take that necessary work and
proceed further in the human <br clear="none">
drama.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
In short, the addition of Trouble into the
pentad does not enhance its <br clear="none">
ability to clarify accounts, in my judgment.
Save the insights that <br clear="none">
flow from Trouble and the many other terms of
disorder that Ed has <br clear="none">
cataloged for a fuller discussion of the rich
complex of terminologies <br clear="none">
of which the pentad is one. Let the humble
pentad do its work well. If <br clear="none">
we do, I think that we will have less chance of
losing the point that <br clear="none">
the pentad was posited for in the first place:
to capture ways that <br clear="none">
symbolic accounts carve up the world
differently.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Jim Klumpp<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
-- <br clear="none">
-------------<br clear="none">
James F. Klumpp, Professor Emeritus<br clear="none">
Department of Communication, University of
Maryland<br clear="none">
409 Upper Haw Dr., Mars Hill, NC 28754<br clear="none">
Email: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv7206764076moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:jklumpp@umd.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:jklumpp@umd.edu">jklumpp@umd.edu</a><br clear="none">
Voice: 828.689.4456<br clear="none">
Website: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~jklumpp/home.htm">http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~jklumpp/home.htm</a><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
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<pre class="yiv7206764076moz-signature">--
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James F. Klumpp, Professor Emeritus
Department of Communication, University of Maryland
409 Upper Haw Dr., Mars Hill, NC 28754
Email: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv7206764076moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:jklumpp@umd.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:jklumpp@umd.edu">jklumpp@umd.edu</a>
Voice: 828-689-4456
Website: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv7206764076moz-txt-link-freetext" target="_blank" href="http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~jklumpp/home.htm">http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~jklumpp/home.htm</a></pre>
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