<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">My apologies, Stan. My communication was not clear, as I was writing too quickly. I should have said, “. . . as Stan repeats” instead of “as Stan asserts.” Also, in repeating this quote (as you say, first introduced by Carrol) I did not mean to imply that it was something you agreed with or were advocating. Far to the contrary! Clearly, you and Carrol were using it to suggest that such a notion is problematic to the point of being dangerous. I was by no means suggesting otherwise, as I had hoped the context of what I was saying would indicate. But in these brief internet exchanges sometimes meanings don’t come across as intended. So, sorry for the confusion. <div><br></div><div>Greg</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Oct 30, 2014, at 5:36 PM, Stan Lindsay <<a href="mailto:slindsa@yahoo.com">slindsa@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 8px;"><div class="" style=""><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" class="">Just to clarify, I ABSOLUTELY DID NOT assert that “an inspired text implies an inspired reader”--which in traditional religious circles often reduces to “an inspired text REQUIRES an inspired reader.” And the inspired readers come out of the woodwork in every direction claiming to be “really, really, really, right.” That comment came from Carrol, quoting John Calvin. For the record, I think such notions are foolish and dangerous. My QJS article in 1999 demonstrates how David Koresh thought he was such an inspired reader. Many people lost their lives. M</span><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe
UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" class="">y book Psychotic Entelechy in 2006</span><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" class=""> demonstrates how Osama bin Laden thought he was such an inspired reader. Many, many more people lost their lives. I make predictions in that book regarding the course such an Islamic psychotic entelechy (based primarily on a religious text) would take. My predictions have, so far, been very correct. I just predicted the entelechial course of the Rhetoric of bin Laden's Battle in a way similar to Burke predicting the entelechial course of the Rhetoric of Hitler's Battle.</span><br style=""></div><div class="" style=""></div><div class="" style=""> </div><div class="" style="">Dr. Stan A. Lindsay, Ph.D.
<br class="" style="">Teaching Professor
<br class="" style="">Professional Communication
<br class="" style="">College of Applied Studies
<br class="" style="">Florida State University
<br class="" style=""><a href="mailto:slindsay@pc.fsu.edu">slindsay@pc.fsu.edu</a>
<br class="" style=""><a href="http://www.stanlindsay.com">http://www.stanlindsay.com</a>
<br class="" style=""><a href="http://www.lindsayDIS.COM">http://www.lindsayDIS.COM</a></div> <div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 8px;" class=""> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" class=""> <div dir="ltr" class="" style=""> <font size="2" face="Arial" class="" style=""> On Thursday, October 30, 2014 6:24 PM, Gregory Desilet <<a href="mailto:info@gregorydesilet.com">info@gregorydesilet.com</a>> wrote:<br class="" style=""> </font> </div> <br class="" style=""><br class="" style=""> <div class="" style=""><div id="yiv3275328137" class="" style=""><div class="" style="">Stan—like Ed, I also appreciate your term “psychotic entelechy.” Though I have only begun to scratch the surface of your writings on this topic, I find it very interesting and plan to explore further. In your most
recent comments I also like what you say about religionists fishing or cutting bait. Either a text is sacred or it isn’t and the qualifiers of “substantially” or “partially” inspired leave followers in a significant quandary. <div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style=""></div><div class="" style="">This quandary comes to the fore when Stan asserts that “an inspired text implies an inspired reader”--which in traditional religious circles often reduces to “an inspired text REQUIRES an inspired reader.” And the inspired readers come out of the woodwork in every direction claiming to be “really, really, really, right.” There is perhaps nothing more uplifting for an insecure spirit to suddenly begin believing he or she is channeling God. This kind of thing is one of the gravest temptations of so-called “sacred texts”—resulting in “Oh yes, I know what God was saying here.” <div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style=""></div><div class="" style="">Stan’s last comment raises the interesting question as to why, when communicating with humans, God would bother to use language at all. In more primitive religions, natural disasters were often interpreted to be an angry god sending a message. In the New Testament the son of God speaks through miracles and parables, the latter which are perhaps in some ways like koans. They short-circuit common logic through the use of words in a way designed to bypass normal sense-making. In the beginning may have been “the Word” but “the Word” is not the last word in God’s arsenal. In fact, if really motivated, wouldn’t God just use telepathy? And, of course, there are those who claim God does communicate with them in precisely this way—no language needed. The big problem for such people, however, arises when they desire to communicate to others what God has communicated to
them. </div><div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style=""></div><div class="" style="">Greg<br clear="none" class="" style=""><div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style=""></div><div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style=""></div><div class="" id="yiv3275328137yqt57046" style=""><div class="" style=""> <br clear="none" class="" style=""><div class="" style=""><div class="" style="">On Oct 30, 2014, at 9:55 AM, Stan Lindsay <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:slindsa@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:slindsa@yahoo.com" class="" style="">slindsa@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:</div><br clear="none" class="" style=""><blockquote type="cite" class="" style=""><div style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:8px;" class=""><div class="" style=""><span class="" style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue',
'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:19px;">Greg,</span><br clear="none" style="" class=""></div><div class="" style="font-size:8px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent;"><span class="" style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:19px;"><br clear="none" class="" style=""></span></div><div class="" style="font-style:normal;background-color:transparent;"><span class="" style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:19px;">At this stage, I do not
disagree with very much of your argument, at all. I think your logic is strong. I have no problem with Ed's description of God as an "Originary Power," but I think that the metonymic (in Burke's sense) move of reducing that Originary Power to the "Great Potential" goes too far, unless by "potential" Ed is referring to Aristotle's sense of "dunamis" (translated "potential") and arguing that of the four causes of motion/action in entelechy, which Aristotle calls "dunamis"--arche, hule, eidos, and telos--he is suggesting that God is arche (the "efficient cause"/in Burkean terms the "agent" from the Pentad). If Ed is calling God the "Great arche/agent," I kind of like it. So, unless I am allowed to make that stipulation, I disagree with your characterization of my earlier comments as "</span><font face="Helvetica Neue, Segoe UI, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif" class="" style=""><span style="font-size:19px;" class="">as Stan says, are they
wholly inspired, substantially inspired, or only partially inspired by the Great Potential." I have no problem with forcing the hand of various religions. I think they should fish or cut bait, to use another homely proverb. I think that the Toulminian qualifiers "substantially" and "partially" are cop-outs, here, and DO, as you suggest, move sacred texts into the philosophical texts category. If the religionists believe Allah is God, and that Mohammed is his prophet, they should be willing to stand behind, argue for/defend, and follow their sacred text, the Qur'an, but that does not mean that they are forced to accept what any specific authorities have interpreted as the true meaning of their text. They need not be impressed by the assertions of Authorities, such as either a bin Laden or even, as an aside, by a powerful scriptural Authority like a John Calvin [to use the Christian example used by Carrol</span></font><span class="" style="background-color:transparent;"><font face="Helvetica Neue, Segoe UI, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif" class="" style=""><span style="font-size:19px;" class="">]--to the effect that an "inspired text implies an inspired reader." I must say that the formula suggested by Carrol, "If I really really know I'm right then I'm right," is an invitation to psychotic entelechy. Yet, I find that even Burkeans who write posts, here, seem to me to succumb to such a formula. But that is another discussion.) Returning to the Islamic example, a</span></font></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:19px;background-color:transparent;" class="">s Burke teaches, there should be recalcitrance, discounting, and the understanding that all languages--including Arabic--use tropes. Muslims should consider Burke's concept of the human as the
symbol-using (symbol-making,
symbol-misusing) animal, and accept the logical conclusion that their God, by choosing to communicate with humans, has chosen to use terminology (symbols) with which Allah's audience would have "shared meaning." (This means that God would have to limit what must be--using Burke's negative theology comments--a "limitless" vocabulary/symbol system--and COMMUNicate by using symbols "made" by these symbol-using animals. Likewise, for Jews and the Tanach (Old Testament). Likewise, for Christians and the New Testament. Likewise for Mormons and the Book of Mormon, and so on, through Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Sikhism, etc.</span></div><div class="" style="font-size:19px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent;"><br clear="none" class="" style=""></div><div class="" style="font-size:19px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe
UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent;"><br clear="none" class="" style=""></div> <div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style=""></div><div class="" style="display:block;"> <div class="" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:8px;"> <div class="" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> <div class="" dir="ltr" style=""> <font class="" size="2" face="Arial" style=""> On Thursday, October 30, 2014 3:40 AM, Gregory Desilet <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:info@gregorydesilet.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:info@gregorydesilet.com" class="" style="">info@gregorydesilet.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none" class="" style=""> </font> </div> <br clear="none" class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style=""> <div class="" style=""><div class="" id="yiv3275328137" style=""><div class="" style="">
<div class="" style=""><span class="" style="font-size:14pt;">Many good points have been made by several
persons, so there is much to respond to and if I do not touch on someone’s
point here that will be because of my limits as a mere human and not because I
view a particular point as not meriting a response. Turning to Ed’s comments
first, he points out that his definition of “religion” is different from mine.
But I think this kind of response gets off on the wrong foot with regard to the
thrust of what I’m attempting to say. Granted, it is perfectly sensible and
legitimate in a discussion of religion to say, “this is what I mean by
religion.” But when Ed says “Greg means something different,” I believe more
than that is going on. True, we can each have our different definitions of
religion and go our separate ways, but what I’m attempting to do is argue
(persuade) others that the term “religion” ought not to be applied in certain
ways due to the circumstance that it thereby loses much of its usefulness as a
term. For example, if we call every bright light in the sky a “star,” that’s
okay but there is benefit to be gained by refining our distinctions to separate
out stars, planets, comets, galaxies, etc.</span></div><div class="" style=""><span class="" style="font-size:14pt;">Ed has seemingly accepted my challenge to distinguish
religions that abandon the sacred text notion from philosophical study and
inquiry by offering the following:</span></div><div class="" style=""><span class="" style="font-size:14pt;">I regard its [religion’s] primary reference as
characteristic of one who believes in an Originary Power we can rightfully call
"God." For me, as a Burkean, I would reductively define that
Power as the "Great Potential."</span></div><div class="" style=""><span class="" style="font-size:14pt;">In other words, divinity or God becomes the
“Great Potential.” All such reasoning is well and good, but what becomes of the
status of what have been called religious texts by way of such a view of
religion? Are these texts in some way the “voice” of the “Great Potential”? Or
as Stan says, are they wholly inspired, substantially inspired, or only
partially inspired by the Great Potential? And what makes these religious texts
substantially different from other texts such as those written by Plato, Aristotle,
Descartes, Spinoza, etc? Are not these latter texts also inspired by the “Great
Potential”? In fact, is not EVERYTHING inspired by the “Great Potential”?</span></div><div class="" style=""><span class="" style="font-size:14pt;">When we humans sever, cloud, or muddy the link
between a text and a divine source of that text, we in effect place that text
alongside all other texts composed by human hands. Who is to say, for example,
that Oscar Wilde’s “De Profundis” is not as much or more divinely inspired than
any text of the Bible—if the divinity is regarded as the “Great Potential”? The
problem is that deciding if texts are religious in nature and in inspiration
becomes a very arbitrary issue. From within this view, we may as well call every such text “religious” or
every such text “secular” because there is no longer a distinction between the two
that can be convincingly defended. At least I am not convinced and I hope I
have convinced others not to be convinced.</span></div><div class="" style=""><span class="" style="font-size:14pt;">As soon as we no longer have a very direct and
clear link to a divine source (a higher being), manifested decisively in some
texts and not in others, we have a situation where every text discussing the
nature of “life” effectively reduces to the category of philosophy. Some of
these texts may be valued more than others by particular individuals but none
of these texts any longer have a source or origin unquestionably superior to
any other. The benefits of each text must be constantly ARGUED and not assumed.
This attitude toward texts makes a big difference in how texts are approached
and in how they are valued. I believe the use of the term “philosophy” to
describe such texts and associated practices is better than “religious” because
it reduces the chances for conveying an authoritarian quality in the text—the
quality traditionally associated with so-called religious texts.</span></div><div class="" id="yiv3275328137yqtfd32345" style=""><div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style=""></div><div class="" style=""><span class="" style="font-size:14pt;">Greg </span></div>
<div class="" style=""><div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style=""></div></div></div></div></div><br clear="none" class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style=""></div> </div> </div> </div> </div></blockquote></div><br clear="none" class="" style=""></div></div></div></div></div></div><br class="" style=""><br class="" style=""></div> </div> </div> </div> </div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>